Christmas Under Seige?

[Piña]

Does Lou Dobbs think Christmas is not a holiday?

CNN host Lou Dobbs bizarrely claimed ( http://mediamatters.org/items/itembody/200412160013 ) that the phrase "Happy Holidays" "exclude[s] everyone who celebrates Christmas," adding that people who think "Happy Holidays" covers Christmas are "wrong." Presumably, Dobbs must not think Christmas qualifies -- or should qualify -- as a holiday.
Dobbs is just the latest in a line of pundits advancing an increasingly weird ( http://mediamatters.org/archives/sea...%27s+christmas ) "Christmas under siege" storyline. Most recently, FOX News guest Mathew Staver, of the conservative legal group Liberty Counsel, claimed ( http://mediamatters.org/items/itembody/200412170004 ) that a former Florida mayor was hostile to Christianity because he was "apparently Jewish."
New York Times columnist Frank Rich ( http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/19/ar...er=rssuserland ) takes off on the right wing's "ever-growing drumbeat that Christianity is under siege in America," intoning (need we say, sarcastically?) "among those courageously leading the fight to save the holiday from its enemies is Bill O'Reilly," who, Rich notes, has taken to smearing the Anti-Defamation League over the organization's umbrage at O'Reilly's suggestion to the Jewish caller that perhaps he would be more comfortable among his people in Israel. Rich also noted (as did Media Matters for America here ( http://mediamatters.org/items/itembody/200412130004 ) and here ( http://mediamatters.org/items/itembody/200412100006 ) that, in Rich's words, Reverend Jerry Falwell and O'Reilly "have gone so far as to name [New York City Mayor] Michael Bloomberg an anti-Christmas conspirator because the mayor referred to the Christmas tree as a 'holiday tree' in the lighting ceremony at Rockefeller Center." Rich blames "the power of this minority" within the Christian majority on "its exaggerated claims on the Bush election victory," but also lays some of the blame on the press for (as Media Matters for America has documented ( http://mediamatters.org/items/itembody/200411240001 )) "invit[ing] religious leaders to discuss 'values' in the aftermath of the election and limit that discussion to all-male panels composed exclusively of either evangelical ministers or politicians with pseudo-spiritual credentials."

(From a media matters email newsletter mailed me.)

<font color="#a52a2a" size="1">[ December 18, 2004 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Pi?a ]</font>

[LanDroid]

I s'pose I can kinda understand why religious folk might think Christmas is "under seige", but their fight against secularization is yet another power grab. Granted a few restrictions have gone too far (students banned from wearing red & green), but I don't think religious folks will be satisfied with lifting those bans. Sounds like they want to ban "Happy Holidays" and "Seasons Greetings" in favor of "Jesus is the reason for the season".

That ain't gonna happen. Corporations have employees, customers, suppliers, and investors from many backgrounds and religions. Corporations will never give in to the right and start sending overtly Christian messages to these folks, it's good business sense. (Although I did see a Salvation Army guy singing Christmas carols in the entrance of Krogers today.) Public schools also serve a diverse population.

It's OK for folks to celebrate the season any way they want in their homes, churches, and private schools, but that's not good enough. Christmas is "under seige" because religious folks have more difficulty forcing it on Americans that have other traditions.

<font color="#a52a2a" size="1">[ December 18, 2004 03:48 PM: Message edited by: LanDroid ]</font>

[gae]

Wrong again, Lan. Christmas IS under seige. It's being replaced by a "Winter Holiday Season" that is supposedly all inclusive so no one offended.

But those pushing for the winter holiday are as separatist as the NAACP. It's not enough for them that other religions are included; they're demanding that the traditional decorations (wreaths, trees) go too.

Corporations have employees, customers, suppliers, and investors from many backgrounds and religions.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since this has always been the case, why is Christmas suddenly a problem now?

By your logic Chuck-E-Cheese should close it's doors because it caters to children and might offen people who can't have children.

Same for Toys-R-Us. Somebody is always offended by something.

[cincygreg]

I find that people who think I'm offensive, offend me.

Everyone really needs to stop being so Anal all the time.

The world would be a boring place if everyone only thought one way or if everyone did exactly the same things all the time, but at the same time people should be allowed to do there own thing without imposing their will and beleifs on those who dont share them.

You go your way and I'll go mine and maybe at some point and time if those paths cross you'll let me pass just as I would let you.
(that wasnt intended to sound like religous mumbo jumbo, but now that I read it, it sort of does.)

Celebrate your holiday of choice, or none if you choose. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Does anyone really care that much about red and green clothing?
I get the no religous stuf in public schools. I'm all for the seperation there.
But, does everyone have to be so frickin anal about everything?
I dont do the religous stuff, but you know what? As far as I'm concerend the only person who makes that decsion is me and no-one else has the right to, and If someone else chooses to do the relgious stuff, then go for it.

<font color="#a52a2a" size="1">[ December 19, 2004 08:42 AM: Message edited by: cincygreg ]</font>

[LanDroid]

"Since this has always been the case, why is Christmas suddenly a problem now?"

A. Christmas is not a problem. Celebrate the heck out of it in your home, church, private school, private organization, whatever. But of course that's not good enough. Christmas is a problem for those that want it foisted on others.
B. Corporations serve a much more diverse population than they did in the past due to globalization, immigration, and other factors.
C. In the past, Americans didn't give a darn about other cultures. Remember the virulent anti-semitism of about 50 years ago or anti-Catholic violence earlier for more stupidity. I don't think we want to swing the pendulum back in that direction.
D. Again, corporations are not gonna participate - the main issue is Gummint support for one religious view.
E. Like it or not Christmas has evolved into a secular holiday. The wild purchasing frenzy, tree decorations, lights, Santa, jazzed up jingle bell songs, and so forth have nothing to do with religion.

<font color="#a52a2a" size="1">[ December 19, 2004 04:18 PM: Message edited by: LanDroid ]</font>

[Lew]

I agree. I think the whole meaning of Christmas has been replaced with ideas of a deeper meaning. Christmas is about one thing, and one thing only, baby- MERCHANTS!!!! It really bothers me when I hear these "heartwarming" stories about quality time spent with loved ones, or Christmas Carols, of any of that crap. What I'm interested in his how well the retailers did. Santa Claus riding in a Norelco razor....that's what I'm talkin' about....

[gae]

[reason]

Granted a few restrictions have gone too far (students banned from wearing red & green),

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...and that was never substantiated. The issue in that situation is that a student passed out candy canes with a biblical message and went outside the rules for such distribution.

[reason]

Wrong again, Lan. Christmas IS under seige. It's being replaced by a "Winter Holiday Season" that is supposedly all inclusive so no one offended.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As one who celebrates Christmas, I'd say that we are under siege by Christmas. Leave it to gae to set the record straight.

In reality, she is very misunderstood...

I think what gae is asking for is equal time for Ramadan, Winter Soltice...and on Wednesday in public schools, she is pushing for the offering to the God Vishnu. And she hasn't forgotten on 12/31, the Baha'i feast celebrating the one Deity as Sharaf.

Because right now it is pretty much illegal to openly celebrate these holidays in the classroom. I applaud her efforts to bring all religions into our public schools.

<font color="#a52a2a" size="1">[ December 20, 2004 02:53 PM: Message edited by: reason ]</font>

[Dulcinea]

And I think that a handful of extremists on both sides is causing problems and making their respective sides look bad.

BTW, gae, I loved the Mallard Fillmore.